Despite only being released at the end of November, my Type 2 conversation with Lewis Arnold and Chris Nelson about their new documentary film The Big Sea, which explores the harmful impact of neoprene on local communities, soon became one of my top 5 most-listened to episodes of 2022. If you haven’t heard it yet, listen here:
And listeners had questions. LOTS of questions. So many that I’ve invited Chris and Lewis to host an Open Thread, open to both free and paid subscribers, in which they explore the issues and answer all the questions elicited by their film and our conversation.
Huge thanks to my friends at Finisterre, who have offered a brand new Yulex wetsuit as a prize for the best question in the comments! Chris and Lewis will pick a winner once the Thread is finished. (This contest is open to both free and paid subscribers, although future Open Thread contests featuring prizes from my pals at Stance, Db, Patagonia, Danner, Goodrays and more will only be open to paid subscribers).
Nice one to everybody who took part in this week’s Open Thread! The Thread is now locked, but if you want to help make The Big Sea a reality, they’re about to launch a kickstarter to help with the post production costs - grading, sound, design, etc. Sign up for news about the project and kickstarter here: https://mailchi.mp/5e63b15b3f62/support-the-film-campaign
Keen to hear more on your thoughts about the surf media, and their unwillingness to publish articles on your story.
Having helped out Surfers Against Sewage for years I was always grateful for the support we received from the British surf media, but I guess we didn’t pay for the advertising space and we were necessarily at odds with the brands that were.
I was gutted to hear that they had blanked you.
Was their reaction what you expected, and can you understand their decision?
How is this ok. At what point and what needs to happen for humans to change the way we think about ethically made wetsuits.
This coverage is a starting point, what needs to happen now. What can we all do besides buy ethically when the problem seems bigger than just purchasing a wetsuit or anything neoprene related.
Is it going to take a huge surfing brand to make a stand and accept responsibility for there actions and elite surfers to also make a stand for their sponsors immoral actions.
Also interested in how everyone feels about the pricing of natural rubber suits.
The larger brand suits are very expensive still. Possibly too expensive for the average summer beach user to afford, especially if buying for the whole family.
Given that suits cost much the same to make for natural rubber and neoprene, should brands be making more affordable suits? I know that comes with economy of scale, but currently most “Yulex” suits must be well over £200.
There’s a perception that Yulex suits don’t perform as well as neoprene, although you make the point many athletes are wearing Yulex. How can the industry change this perception?
I'm curious about the scalability of Yulex as a replacement for neoprene. Given it's a plantation product, demand growth would imply land issues in tropical areas. Do you worry that we're potentially replacing one set of problems with another?
Has anyone from any of the big wetsuit brands reached out with messages of support ‘off the record’, or has it been radio silence?
As creatives in the surf game it’s hard enough as it to make a crust. Did you worry that by going public with this it’ll make it harder to get budgets for future projects?
My worry is that the 'Limestone' narrative of being more 'sustainable' and 'green' seems to be swallowed now, making it appear that the change that was needed to be made has been, when in fact its basically replacing like for like!
-What would you like to see from wetsuit brands to achieve transparency on the materials they use?
Matt thanks for sharing your great platform for discussing all the details on this tragic story. *disclaimer I am a surfer tied to the Surf Industry and a wetsuit geek. How do we crack the greenwash ‘limestone’ as eco solution that the brands are using? They have brainwashed everyone on limestone as being eco and performance enhancing and have not linked Limestone suits to its production, nor its true environmental impact. x
Thanks Chris and Lewis for making this film off your own sweat and tears and drawing everyone's attention to this.
The scary part (one of many) is the people working in these plants know they are risking their health, but it sounds as though they don't have the resources or the opportunity to move / work elsewhere. From the conversations you've had, what alternative options would they have if the factories were eventually shut down? Do you think there will ever be compensation or support from the wetsuit industry for the communities?
Does this not reflect the wider issue we have with the whole topic of sustainability. It’s to big at the consumer level E.G, “it’s over there so not my problem”. “How can I make a difference”. At the industry level, pricing won’t change unless it happens at scale, so we need more manufacturers to use their impact. And I think this is, the “hold the mirror up” moment, surfing has issues, and the industry at all levels need to hold its hands ups. Blank cheques against nature have been written for to long. So my question, how can this story be used to develop a platform for cultural and industry change? People will need direction, so what’s the next step? How do we make this digestible, so that smaller change impacts scale.
Hey guys, thanks for making this film, I'm looking forward to seeing it.
My question is about production and switching to Yulex (or another alternative if there is one).
In my experience things have to be made easy to convince people to change their choices.
If a brand wanted to switch, would it be an easy enough to manage in terms of the production and costs linked to production? Is there enough manufacturing capacity and materials for the mainstream brands to switch for example? If we can show them the path to switching is possible - easy even - than I think there is real hope that the bigger brands might change.
As far as I know Patagonia did a lot (all?) of the development of Yulex and made the information freely available so others could follow so it feels like there is hope there.
What are your thoughts on this and have you looked into it?
One thing I think would be a great to see is a breakdown of the costs of production for neoprene vs Yulex wetsuits and other products. I think if people can see there's little or no difference in the cost and quality then there's way brands can use that as an argument. Do you think Patagonia or Finisterre would be willing to show these figures to help convince brands to switch?
Super interesting hearing you talk about it on the podcast. Great to hear really important topics being covered, so rare in surfing!
Let me know if I can help in any way with finishing and spreading the word of course!
Just looking through the Denka website. Unbelievably in their vision under core values it reads “we will respect diversity and create a safe and secure environment “
this was a powerful one. the podcast alone made me want to both throw up in my mouth as well as as recycle my neoprene rubber and seriously evaluate my BS environmental stance.
as someone who has tested and worn patagonia suits off and on since their inception, yulex is a game changer. also the repair service that brands like patagonia and finisterre provided is critical to closing the loop. and hats off to other brands like Seaa and Billabong for embracing yulex in this "open source model."
regardless of surf media or hype the biggest challenges to adoption i see are:
1) even if you want to be in and are educated to value, the wetsuit fit changes each year seemingly (patagonia looking at you) so if you cannot go to a local retailer or corporate store, you are left guessing your size or ordering multiple sizes and returning the ones that do not fit (that environmental impact on shipping alone is significant).
2) the yulex rubber is said to perform and flex similar to "regular" rubber yet the suits I have worn and tested over the years always is less flexible and heavier. if there is a version that truly performs at the same level as the "high end" rubber currently available, those yulex suits should be released into the marketplace. as the only way to change stubborn surfers and their behaviors is to start with the influential or those where money is not the concern, and performance is the priority.
3) price and distribution are a concern to get to the mass market but surf is still a pyramid model where everyone is influenced (even the beginner) less by price and more by performance and pros. the only exception I can see is SUP and wave storms.
One way forward might be to create a certification mark for the Yulex rubber suits which clearly states that no human harmful emissions were generated in the making of this product. The yulex product should then make a campaign out of this using some top young surfers who want to associated with non neoprene products.
after wearing yulex from patagonia and finn, it is heavier and less flexible. I still use it as it is important to me. but I notice it esp after my shoulder injuries - getting in and out of the suit as well as paddling.
if there was a yulex suit that performed at the same flexibility as say e4 or e5 or others, would be a game changer.
people also tout the Japanese yamamoto. I don't see it as warmer but it is more flexible than what we currently have available to consumers.
right that was a big one that you guys brought up! the yamamoto perception that it is not the same factory as the others. that misnomer is huge right now. appreciate everything you guys are doing.
I listened to this podcast and just found myself glad that I was in surgery so I would t even consider getting in the ocean! The thought of putting a neoprene wetsuit on made me feel sick! Actually nauseous. I saw my dad, I saw family, I saw so many black and brown people that are dispensable and irrelevant. It made my heart hurt! As a surf club owner who works with diverse communities and refugees we get donated suits frequently which is incredible and we will continue to pass those on - but I can’t bear the thought of buying a wetsuit for myself, my daughters or any girls and women we surf with without a knot in my stomach.
I appreciate this is not a constructive or a question or a anything other than emotional but it needs to be emotional and people need to be affected by it to take action. The cost is a barrier yes, but I would rather sit and save for an extra paycheck than have another life on my conscience.
Thanks so much for bringing this to a wider audience
How can the plant workers for Denka directly benefit from wetsuit brands switching to Yulex (or other equivalent)? Is there potential for concerned consumers to create further misery for this group of people?
I’m looking forward to seeing the documentary. I’m grateful for filmmakers like you, who are committed to presenting us with uncomfortable truths. There is so much greenwashing in surfing and as good as the industry and culture has always been at ignoring it, I think (and hope) it’ll be increasingly hard to do so. Am I too utopian? Do you think large scale change can be achieved by the surf industry and its customers or ultimately will a greater (legislative) intervention be needed? ✊🏻
I’ve got two questions for you which I hope don’t come across as rude or dismissive – they’re absolutely not intended to be, but they were hard to word. The discussion of the toxicity of chloroprene is a really important issue and helps highlight the complexity of transitioning to more sustainable products is because so many actors are involved from consumers to producers to media to communities to ecologies.
There is a lot of shock and frustration from listeners and commenters that surf media haven’t taken up this story – from listeners and from you guys. For any of us who’ve worked on activism on multiple, intersecting issues in surfing for a long time, I imagine we felt much less shock (although equal frustration). In a way, it feels like your storytelling and the emotions you centre in your discussions, are establishing a way for lots of men to connect with multiple issues in a way many of them have avoided. (I hope the bigger point I’m trying to make is clear in that sentence, which is doing so much dancing around the words I want to use.) So I’m wondering what impact that’s had on how you guys think about all the other issues that surf media have avoided publishing on, how it makes you reflect on what else has been brushed aside, and how you think your experience will change your participation in activism more broadly.
My second question is about the effects of stopping Denka’s production on the financial wellbeing of the community who have relied on them. (And you might have talked about this in your discussion, but I didn’t re-listen before writing my question, sorry!). I have no doubt it will be hugely important on the community’s health for production of neoprene to stop. This is not contestable. But while most of the questions here about the sustainable production and costs of Yulex, I wonder if Denka is a big employer in the community and what impact their closure would have when the production of neoprene folds? We can feel better about our transition as consumers but will that have financial implications on the community? Who carries the financial burden of change is part of environmental racism too.
Thanks for your work on the film and your energy on continuing to engage with questions.
Hi guys, firstly just want to say how much this shocked me and I will definitely be re-addressing my wetsuit choices from now on. I was previously pretty unconvinced by the yulex originally (and put off by the price) but listening to this podcast has made it a no-brainer to switch when I get my next suit.
My question is... how do you address wetsuit production at the more budget end of the scale- e.g. what you can buy in beach shops and stalls for the summer beach-goers etc.? Do you see change trickling down after the issue within the surf industry is resolved? Or do you think that there will be so much demand at the budget end that neoprene production will continue on the same scale? Also, do you think more can be done to focus on wetsuit repairs from the bigger companies? At the very least repairing wetsuits instead of pushing people to replace with the newest suit could be a great start?
Firstly I would like to thank Matt for leading me to the London Surf Film Festival to witness this incredible eye opening feature. Looking Sideways has lead me on a different path in life, now with my eyes open.
Secondly thanks to Lewis and Chris for raising awareness of the process and damage caused by the creation of our wetsuits.
When I watched the film, it was with a very heavy heart. I had taken my wife to the festival, who doesn’t surf btw. She said that was a heavy movie to watch, but the outcome is that she will try her utmost to avoid any neoprene products from now on.
I don’t know how to convert the masses, even my friends within the surf community are hard to steer away from neoprene, not because they do not care, but because they cannot afford the cost of a top end suit. I have tried to express to them that if you buy quality, you will have to replace it less frequently.
Hopefully some very high profile individuals within the watersports community will get on this quest with you.
I hope the ripples that you have started grow to the force of Nazare.
Keen to hear more on your thoughts about the surf media, and their unwillingness to publish articles on your story.
Having helped out Surfers Against Sewage for years I was always grateful for the support we received from the British surf media, but I guess we didn’t pay for the advertising space and we were necessarily at odds with the brands that were.
I was gutted to hear that they had blanked you.
Was their reaction what you expected, and can you understand their decision?
How is this ok. At what point and what needs to happen for humans to change the way we think about ethically made wetsuits.
This coverage is a starting point, what needs to happen now. What can we all do besides buy ethically when the problem seems bigger than just purchasing a wetsuit or anything neoprene related.
Is it going to take a huge surfing brand to make a stand and accept responsibility for there actions and elite surfers to also make a stand for their sponsors immoral actions.
Also interested in how everyone feels about the pricing of natural rubber suits.
The larger brand suits are very expensive still. Possibly too expensive for the average summer beach user to afford, especially if buying for the whole family.
Given that suits cost much the same to make for natural rubber and neoprene, should brands be making more affordable suits? I know that comes with economy of scale, but currently most “Yulex” suits must be well over £200.
There’s a perception that Yulex suits don’t perform as well as neoprene, although you make the point many athletes are wearing Yulex. How can the industry change this perception?
Do you think that the film will do for ethical surfing products what Black Fish did to the sea life centres?
I'm curious about the scalability of Yulex as a replacement for neoprene. Given it's a plantation product, demand growth would imply land issues in tropical areas. Do you worry that we're potentially replacing one set of problems with another?
I’ve got a couple.
Has anyone from any of the big wetsuit brands reached out with messages of support ‘off the record’, or has it been radio silence?
As creatives in the surf game it’s hard enough as it to make a crust. Did you worry that by going public with this it’ll make it harder to get budgets for future projects?
Thanks Chris
My worry is that the 'Limestone' narrative of being more 'sustainable' and 'green' seems to be swallowed now, making it appear that the change that was needed to be made has been, when in fact its basically replacing like for like!
-What would you like to see from wetsuit brands to achieve transparency on the materials they use?
Matt thanks for sharing your great platform for discussing all the details on this tragic story. *disclaimer I am a surfer tied to the Surf Industry and a wetsuit geek. How do we crack the greenwash ‘limestone’ as eco solution that the brands are using? They have brainwashed everyone on limestone as being eco and performance enhancing and have not linked Limestone suits to its production, nor its true environmental impact. x
Thanks Chris and Lewis for making this film off your own sweat and tears and drawing everyone's attention to this.
The scary part (one of many) is the people working in these plants know they are risking their health, but it sounds as though they don't have the resources or the opportunity to move / work elsewhere. From the conversations you've had, what alternative options would they have if the factories were eventually shut down? Do you think there will ever be compensation or support from the wetsuit industry for the communities?
Does this not reflect the wider issue we have with the whole topic of sustainability. It’s to big at the consumer level E.G, “it’s over there so not my problem”. “How can I make a difference”. At the industry level, pricing won’t change unless it happens at scale, so we need more manufacturers to use their impact. And I think this is, the “hold the mirror up” moment, surfing has issues, and the industry at all levels need to hold its hands ups. Blank cheques against nature have been written for to long. So my question, how can this story be used to develop a platform for cultural and industry change? People will need direction, so what’s the next step? How do we make this digestible, so that smaller change impacts scale.
Hey guys, thanks for making this film, I'm looking forward to seeing it.
My question is about production and switching to Yulex (or another alternative if there is one).
In my experience things have to be made easy to convince people to change their choices.
If a brand wanted to switch, would it be an easy enough to manage in terms of the production and costs linked to production? Is there enough manufacturing capacity and materials for the mainstream brands to switch for example? If we can show them the path to switching is possible - easy even - than I think there is real hope that the bigger brands might change.
As far as I know Patagonia did a lot (all?) of the development of Yulex and made the information freely available so others could follow so it feels like there is hope there.
What are your thoughts on this and have you looked into it?
One thing I think would be a great to see is a breakdown of the costs of production for neoprene vs Yulex wetsuits and other products. I think if people can see there's little or no difference in the cost and quality then there's way brands can use that as an argument. Do you think Patagonia or Finisterre would be willing to show these figures to help convince brands to switch?
Super interesting hearing you talk about it on the podcast. Great to hear really important topics being covered, so rare in surfing!
Let me know if I can help in any way with finishing and spreading the word of course!
Just looking through the Denka website. Unbelievably in their vision under core values it reads “we will respect diversity and create a safe and secure environment “
this was a powerful one. the podcast alone made me want to both throw up in my mouth as well as as recycle my neoprene rubber and seriously evaluate my BS environmental stance.
as someone who has tested and worn patagonia suits off and on since their inception, yulex is a game changer. also the repair service that brands like patagonia and finisterre provided is critical to closing the loop. and hats off to other brands like Seaa and Billabong for embracing yulex in this "open source model."
regardless of surf media or hype the biggest challenges to adoption i see are:
1) even if you want to be in and are educated to value, the wetsuit fit changes each year seemingly (patagonia looking at you) so if you cannot go to a local retailer or corporate store, you are left guessing your size or ordering multiple sizes and returning the ones that do not fit (that environmental impact on shipping alone is significant).
2) the yulex rubber is said to perform and flex similar to "regular" rubber yet the suits I have worn and tested over the years always is less flexible and heavier. if there is a version that truly performs at the same level as the "high end" rubber currently available, those yulex suits should be released into the marketplace. as the only way to change stubborn surfers and their behaviors is to start with the influential or those where money is not the concern, and performance is the priority.
3) price and distribution are a concern to get to the mass market but surf is still a pyramid model where everyone is influenced (even the beginner) less by price and more by performance and pros. the only exception I can see is SUP and wave storms.
One way forward might be to create a certification mark for the Yulex rubber suits which clearly states that no human harmful emissions were generated in the making of this product. The yulex product should then make a campaign out of this using some top young surfers who want to associated with non neoprene products.
after wearing yulex from patagonia and finn, it is heavier and less flexible. I still use it as it is important to me. but I notice it esp after my shoulder injuries - getting in and out of the suit as well as paddling.
if there was a yulex suit that performed at the same flexibility as say e4 or e5 or others, would be a game changer.
people also tout the Japanese yamamoto. I don't see it as warmer but it is more flexible than what we currently have available to consumers.
Hey Guys! amazing episode.
I have quoted your part about the automotive industry actually acknowledging the problems ahead vs surf who are ignoring it, loved that part.
Two questions :
1) so is the only option we should be looking at is the Patagonia Yulex suits?
2) The firewire boards are part of eco board project - is this thing legit?
Thanks for your work!
right that was a big one that you guys brought up! the yamamoto perception that it is not the same factory as the others. that misnomer is huge right now. appreciate everything you guys are doing.
I listened to this podcast and just found myself glad that I was in surgery so I would t even consider getting in the ocean! The thought of putting a neoprene wetsuit on made me feel sick! Actually nauseous. I saw my dad, I saw family, I saw so many black and brown people that are dispensable and irrelevant. It made my heart hurt! As a surf club owner who works with diverse communities and refugees we get donated suits frequently which is incredible and we will continue to pass those on - but I can’t bear the thought of buying a wetsuit for myself, my daughters or any girls and women we surf with without a knot in my stomach.
I appreciate this is not a constructive or a question or a anything other than emotional but it needs to be emotional and people need to be affected by it to take action. The cost is a barrier yes, but I would rather sit and save for an extra paycheck than have another life on my conscience.
Thanks so much for bringing this to a wider audience
How can the plant workers for Denka directly benefit from wetsuit brands switching to Yulex (or other equivalent)? Is there potential for concerned consumers to create further misery for this group of people?
I’m looking forward to seeing the documentary. I’m grateful for filmmakers like you, who are committed to presenting us with uncomfortable truths. There is so much greenwashing in surfing and as good as the industry and culture has always been at ignoring it, I think (and hope) it’ll be increasingly hard to do so. Am I too utopian? Do you think large scale change can be achieved by the surf industry and its customers or ultimately will a greater (legislative) intervention be needed? ✊🏻
I’ve got two questions for you which I hope don’t come across as rude or dismissive – they’re absolutely not intended to be, but they were hard to word. The discussion of the toxicity of chloroprene is a really important issue and helps highlight the complexity of transitioning to more sustainable products is because so many actors are involved from consumers to producers to media to communities to ecologies.
There is a lot of shock and frustration from listeners and commenters that surf media haven’t taken up this story – from listeners and from you guys. For any of us who’ve worked on activism on multiple, intersecting issues in surfing for a long time, I imagine we felt much less shock (although equal frustration). In a way, it feels like your storytelling and the emotions you centre in your discussions, are establishing a way for lots of men to connect with multiple issues in a way many of them have avoided. (I hope the bigger point I’m trying to make is clear in that sentence, which is doing so much dancing around the words I want to use.) So I’m wondering what impact that’s had on how you guys think about all the other issues that surf media have avoided publishing on, how it makes you reflect on what else has been brushed aside, and how you think your experience will change your participation in activism more broadly.
My second question is about the effects of stopping Denka’s production on the financial wellbeing of the community who have relied on them. (And you might have talked about this in your discussion, but I didn’t re-listen before writing my question, sorry!). I have no doubt it will be hugely important on the community’s health for production of neoprene to stop. This is not contestable. But while most of the questions here about the sustainable production and costs of Yulex, I wonder if Denka is a big employer in the community and what impact their closure would have when the production of neoprene folds? We can feel better about our transition as consumers but will that have financial implications on the community? Who carries the financial burden of change is part of environmental racism too.
Thanks for your work on the film and your energy on continuing to engage with questions.
Hi guys, firstly just want to say how much this shocked me and I will definitely be re-addressing my wetsuit choices from now on. I was previously pretty unconvinced by the yulex originally (and put off by the price) but listening to this podcast has made it a no-brainer to switch when I get my next suit.
My question is... how do you address wetsuit production at the more budget end of the scale- e.g. what you can buy in beach shops and stalls for the summer beach-goers etc.? Do you see change trickling down after the issue within the surf industry is resolved? Or do you think that there will be so much demand at the budget end that neoprene production will continue on the same scale? Also, do you think more can be done to focus on wetsuit repairs from the bigger companies? At the very least repairing wetsuits instead of pushing people to replace with the newest suit could be a great start?
Firstly I would like to thank Matt for leading me to the London Surf Film Festival to witness this incredible eye opening feature. Looking Sideways has lead me on a different path in life, now with my eyes open.
Secondly thanks to Lewis and Chris for raising awareness of the process and damage caused by the creation of our wetsuits.
When I watched the film, it was with a very heavy heart. I had taken my wife to the festival, who doesn’t surf btw. She said that was a heavy movie to watch, but the outcome is that she will try her utmost to avoid any neoprene products from now on.
I don’t know how to convert the masses, even my friends within the surf community are hard to steer away from neoprene, not because they do not care, but because they cannot afford the cost of a top end suit. I have tried to express to them that if you buy quality, you will have to replace it less frequently.
Hopefully some very high profile individuals within the watersports community will get on this quest with you.
I hope the ripples that you have started grow to the force of Nazare.