A roving discussion on the history of guided mountaineering, the socio-economic impact of climbing, and the legacy of colonialism, with the author of the brilliant new book Everest, Inc.
Really good to have a new episode, and enjoyed it a lot. I got the impression that both of you were manoeuvring rather carefully around quite a few elements of the story. I'd love to hear Will or another climbing expert to talk more freely, and to go a bit deeper into the psychology of climbers / guides and the guided. I don't get the 'because it's there' thing at all. There's a more complex pathology in alpinism for sure.
I'm guessing you've read Joe Simpson's Storms of Silence? That's an interesting reflection of the kind of madness of big mountain climbers. What chance of getting him on the pod?
Hey Tim nice to hear from you. I thought Will made his feelings pretty clear tbh - he thinks guided climbing is as legit as any other form of climbing. I think tbh that type of conversation is so common, not least in endless climbing podcasts (and, as you say, in the book you mention) I wasn’t super interested in adding to that discourse. But the theme you mention is one of the central pillars of Will’s book - I think you’d enjoy it
Interesting episode Matt. The commoditisation of Everest (or the TMB for that matter) feels grubby to me. On that point I thought what Will said about a push to open up the outdoors to new visitors (cables opening access to a climb) was lacking nuance.
In the French Alps, the push to open the mountains to all seems to have had the opposite effect. Rather than draw visitors to experience a different way of life the push seems to be to bring all the trappings of Western culture to the mountains.
Bigger, flashier lodgings, homogenised mountain restaurants with identikit DJs and early afternoon apres, more boutique shops, even the same swarms of Mercedes Vitos and box fresh Landrovers. Every new development looks like it's come from the same AI image generator prompts.
I can't find the exact stats, but someone at Listex was saying that the Luxury British ski market accounts for 4% of ski days but 50% of revenue. That's increasingly who the resorts are pandering to. There's no push to increase connection and stewardship. Quite the opposite, locals are pushed out of resort as house prices rise and accessible, affordable services fall. If you're only here for a fraction of the winter season or year in general, why would you give a flying Folie Douce fuck how the climate and biodiversity is when you're not around.
I'm all for getting more people to connect to nature, but it's got to be more holistic than it currently is.
Tbf to Will he just answered a question in a podcast, and I'm not sure I remember him qualifying that position by saying 'And it's totally fine if these newcomers shaft the place!'
Also, as much as I sympathise with your frustrations, living right next to Courchevel does put you pretty much at ground zero for those specific issues you raise. I'd be wary of extrapolating that godawful scenario to mean 'the outdoors' per se, although obviously the line between gatekeeping and stewardship is a fine one. Which is why we discussed it, and which is why I made the argument we need a better form of education for newcomers, using surfing's toxic approach of basically bullying and shouting at people as the way NOT to do it.
Big thanks, as ever, for listening so closely, and for the thoughtful comment 🤙
Cheers Matt. Not meant to be a criticism of Will's answer just expanding on it. Thought it was a great convo, timely and balanced. Accept the point about education for newcomers. I see part of the problem being access to better tech which offers a short cut to a higher level of performance without the experience or technique that would be honed over a longer time frame. If anything I think that drive for peak performance puts you into "What Can Nature Do For Me" territory from pods past.
Skis and boards let novices ride faster than before. Lighter kit lets you hike further, Ebikes get you further into the wilderness than legs alone. I just don't think it necessarily adds a level of respect for a sport or the environment you carry it out in.
I guess I see Courch as a canary in the coal mine for the Alps and I do see the issues repeated to a greater or lesser extent across the wider outdoor and tourist industry. La Grave is currently going through a less glitzy but no less important fight. Tourist destinations like Barcelona, Mallorca, Cornwall, Venice and Annecy have all been in the headlines for movements against unresponsible tourism.
Either way, it's great to have a platform to hear these stories on and a place to discuss them in.
I agree with a lot of that. Hence why I think that debate about the Lift between Chris and Gavin was so important and symbolic. Once The Announcement is out of the way, I'm going to look at doing a new series about that. As you say, this battle is being played out in various locations right now, you could also add Utah with the battle over the Cottonwood Canyon gondola to this mix.
Really good to have a new episode, and enjoyed it a lot. I got the impression that both of you were manoeuvring rather carefully around quite a few elements of the story. I'd love to hear Will or another climbing expert to talk more freely, and to go a bit deeper into the psychology of climbers / guides and the guided. I don't get the 'because it's there' thing at all. There's a more complex pathology in alpinism for sure.
I'm guessing you've read Joe Simpson's Storms of Silence? That's an interesting reflection of the kind of madness of big mountain climbers. What chance of getting him on the pod?
Hey Tim nice to hear from you. I thought Will made his feelings pretty clear tbh - he thinks guided climbing is as legit as any other form of climbing. I think tbh that type of conversation is so common, not least in endless climbing podcasts (and, as you say, in the book you mention) I wasn’t super interested in adding to that discourse. But the theme you mention is one of the central pillars of Will’s book - I think you’d enjoy it
Interesting episode Matt. The commoditisation of Everest (or the TMB for that matter) feels grubby to me. On that point I thought what Will said about a push to open up the outdoors to new visitors (cables opening access to a climb) was lacking nuance.
In the French Alps, the push to open the mountains to all seems to have had the opposite effect. Rather than draw visitors to experience a different way of life the push seems to be to bring all the trappings of Western culture to the mountains.
Bigger, flashier lodgings, homogenised mountain restaurants with identikit DJs and early afternoon apres, more boutique shops, even the same swarms of Mercedes Vitos and box fresh Landrovers. Every new development looks like it's come from the same AI image generator prompts.
I can't find the exact stats, but someone at Listex was saying that the Luxury British ski market accounts for 4% of ski days but 50% of revenue. That's increasingly who the resorts are pandering to. There's no push to increase connection and stewardship. Quite the opposite, locals are pushed out of resort as house prices rise and accessible, affordable services fall. If you're only here for a fraction of the winter season or year in general, why would you give a flying Folie Douce fuck how the climate and biodiversity is when you're not around.
I'm all for getting more people to connect to nature, but it's got to be more holistic than it currently is.
Tbf to Will he just answered a question in a podcast, and I'm not sure I remember him qualifying that position by saying 'And it's totally fine if these newcomers shaft the place!'
Also, as much as I sympathise with your frustrations, living right next to Courchevel does put you pretty much at ground zero for those specific issues you raise. I'd be wary of extrapolating that godawful scenario to mean 'the outdoors' per se, although obviously the line between gatekeeping and stewardship is a fine one. Which is why we discussed it, and which is why I made the argument we need a better form of education for newcomers, using surfing's toxic approach of basically bullying and shouting at people as the way NOT to do it.
Big thanks, as ever, for listening so closely, and for the thoughtful comment 🤙
Cheers Matt. Not meant to be a criticism of Will's answer just expanding on it. Thought it was a great convo, timely and balanced. Accept the point about education for newcomers. I see part of the problem being access to better tech which offers a short cut to a higher level of performance without the experience or technique that would be honed over a longer time frame. If anything I think that drive for peak performance puts you into "What Can Nature Do For Me" territory from pods past.
Skis and boards let novices ride faster than before. Lighter kit lets you hike further, Ebikes get you further into the wilderness than legs alone. I just don't think it necessarily adds a level of respect for a sport or the environment you carry it out in.
I guess I see Courch as a canary in the coal mine for the Alps and I do see the issues repeated to a greater or lesser extent across the wider outdoor and tourist industry. La Grave is currently going through a less glitzy but no less important fight. Tourist destinations like Barcelona, Mallorca, Cornwall, Venice and Annecy have all been in the headlines for movements against unresponsible tourism.
Either way, it's great to have a platform to hear these stories on and a place to discuss them in.
Ta
I agree with a lot of that. Hence why I think that debate about the Lift between Chris and Gavin was so important and symbolic. Once The Announcement is out of the way, I'm going to look at doing a new series about that. As you say, this battle is being played out in various locations right now, you could also add Utah with the battle over the Cottonwood Canyon gondola to this mix.
Really looking forward to the Announcement. Hoping it's out in time for summer road trip season...
🤞🏻