The snowboarder and protester on riding one of Europe's last secret corners, direct action for Just Stop Oil, and why we should be worried about the erosion of our civil liberties.
Loved Callum's points about climate change feeling abstract. I think that is especially the case in some parts of Europe and the UK. I was driving through Devon last summer, looking at the lush trees and grass and abundant water and shade and it struck me that it would be so very hard to think about climate change when you live in such a place. As Callum points out, the main sense is one of loss - of snow, of cold, of absolute certainty. In the Pacific it's one of actual loss - of land, of home. In Australia it's more like amplification of the intense weather in many places - of fire, flood drought, and heat. And yet we're still largely inactive and apathetic here. People in the Pacific have been engaging in direct action at us for so long and we ignore them. I have no answers, but I really enjoyed the chat, and hearing about direct action as one approach that is necessary among the many, many approaches we need.
But I wonder, Callum, what you think about how direct action is also often quite local and located, when climate change is so global. Is it possible to make a call to action to folk for whom the realities are abstract? Maybe some of the forms of protest related to the violence being carried out in Gaza are an example of this? Or maybe that's where the recording/filming and sharing on various platforms comes in? Or maybe it's just about getting people talking where you are? Anyway, I hope that question makes sense?
It's even hard to communicate in the those places where it is less abstract. I was involved in a conversation the other day where someone asked the owner of a host of ski shops in Courchevel 1850 if they were worried about the future on the back of the lack of snow this winter.
The ski shop owners response was no. As more ski resorts close, we'll have more clients, we'll become more exclusive and we can charge more.
Matt has described skiing as the canary in the coal mine. It's just that. If we can't ski the climate has changed greatly. That means we'll have famine, drought and social unrest. Whether we can rent more skis, at higher prices is no longer of concern.
Maybe we have to use our energy to reach young audiences? Many older people are trapped in the system, that demands they make more money to pay for mortgages, cars and other trappings.
At least the young don't have those burdens. They have a ton of others but they're not trapped yet.
Really good as always Matt. Really liked Calum's suggestion that we've got to "change the political weather, to make it safe for politicians to block new oil licences." I think that's the key outcome all our activities should focus on, and not just about oil. We need a much more thoughtful and collaborative political discourse. It's got to be safer to be a principled politician. We need some of our kind of people to feel that they could stand for election.
So I also agree with your insistence that we (in the outdoor industry) have to become more political, but I don't think it can or will come from any existing brands. The environmental imperatives are about degrowth, demand reduction, regeneration and true circularity, and all of those are contrary to the constant growth model we (nearly) all operate in at present.
That Adbusters article on degrowth that you shared a few weeks back feels incredibly prescient, but it's a really, really hard sell to virtually everyone except Swampy. You keep asking why our community is so often disengaged, and I think it is mainly guilt. We don't want to confront the reality that unless you really are actively being a significant part of the solution, you are part of the problem.
Calum also talked about direct action starting conversations with his local community, and I think that's the key. The Green Party won loads of seats at the last big set of council elections because they went politely door-knocking asking what local things local people wanted and just listening. Turns out most of the things everyone wants are very green, and most people are not really as rabid as the newspapers they read.
There is hope, I think, but I don't see it coming from any of the existing structures. We all need to be a lot more Calum.
This was great Matt, really enjoying the direction the podcast is moving in at the moment.
Calum made loads of great points but the thing that made me think most was the idea that for many protesters, direct action is a last resort. Despite supporting the actions of peaceful protesters it's not something that immediately sprang to mind about them and will be a piece of info I take forwards.
On the other hand I felt that pushing the narrative around the potential suffering of those in the global south was less likely to resonate that Calum suggested. Sadly I think too many in the North are looking forwards to more English white wine and warmer summer days to care about this too much. Sadly I think increased flooding and climate disruption at home is more likely to focus minds.
All power to Calum. Hope he's getting some late season powder between court cases.
Great topic to dig into cheers Matt for putting it together and Calum for your dedication to driving action. Building momentum within the demand for action is definitely critical!
From POWs side we do try and discuss a lot more than just the impact on skiing, whether it's more directly related such as local economies, to the glacier water needed by literal millions, and beyond. I do think starting with sports impacts can be a useful way in to gain the interest of people that have never really considered being active on climate/environment before though, for example it sounds like POW/Jeremy Jones helped get Calum more interested at the start. I'd agree it can be much harder to get brands on board with sharing/participating in Comms or campaigns the more you try to push the envelope on climate impacts content or actions to take.
Maybe we can consider a how we can add visibility to the knock-on impacts in our social media content - whilst it's definitely there in our longer training courses like Carbon Literacy Training for example, it's harder to get the breadth of the message across in social media without losing the uniqueness that helps it attract new people but any suggestions and feedback welcomed. Hopefully more of this level of discussion as well as people participating in training (nice one for ACM taking our CLT Matt) the more it'll become easier to get behind effective asks and actions.
Loved Callum's points about climate change feeling abstract. I think that is especially the case in some parts of Europe and the UK. I was driving through Devon last summer, looking at the lush trees and grass and abundant water and shade and it struck me that it would be so very hard to think about climate change when you live in such a place. As Callum points out, the main sense is one of loss - of snow, of cold, of absolute certainty. In the Pacific it's one of actual loss - of land, of home. In Australia it's more like amplification of the intense weather in many places - of fire, flood drought, and heat. And yet we're still largely inactive and apathetic here. People in the Pacific have been engaging in direct action at us for so long and we ignore them. I have no answers, but I really enjoyed the chat, and hearing about direct action as one approach that is necessary among the many, many approaches we need.
But I wonder, Callum, what you think about how direct action is also often quite local and located, when climate change is so global. Is it possible to make a call to action to folk for whom the realities are abstract? Maybe some of the forms of protest related to the violence being carried out in Gaza are an example of this? Or maybe that's where the recording/filming and sharing on various platforms comes in? Or maybe it's just about getting people talking where you are? Anyway, I hope that question makes sense?
It's even hard to communicate in the those places where it is less abstract. I was involved in a conversation the other day where someone asked the owner of a host of ski shops in Courchevel 1850 if they were worried about the future on the back of the lack of snow this winter.
The ski shop owners response was no. As more ski resorts close, we'll have more clients, we'll become more exclusive and we can charge more.
Matt has described skiing as the canary in the coal mine. It's just that. If we can't ski the climate has changed greatly. That means we'll have famine, drought and social unrest. Whether we can rent more skis, at higher prices is no longer of concern.
Maybe we have to use our energy to reach young audiences? Many older people are trapped in the system, that demands they make more money to pay for mortgages, cars and other trappings.
At least the young don't have those burdens. They have a ton of others but they're not trapped yet.
Really good as always Matt. Really liked Calum's suggestion that we've got to "change the political weather, to make it safe for politicians to block new oil licences." I think that's the key outcome all our activities should focus on, and not just about oil. We need a much more thoughtful and collaborative political discourse. It's got to be safer to be a principled politician. We need some of our kind of people to feel that they could stand for election.
So I also agree with your insistence that we (in the outdoor industry) have to become more political, but I don't think it can or will come from any existing brands. The environmental imperatives are about degrowth, demand reduction, regeneration and true circularity, and all of those are contrary to the constant growth model we (nearly) all operate in at present.
That Adbusters article on degrowth that you shared a few weeks back feels incredibly prescient, but it's a really, really hard sell to virtually everyone except Swampy. You keep asking why our community is so often disengaged, and I think it is mainly guilt. We don't want to confront the reality that unless you really are actively being a significant part of the solution, you are part of the problem.
Calum also talked about direct action starting conversations with his local community, and I think that's the key. The Green Party won loads of seats at the last big set of council elections because they went politely door-knocking asking what local things local people wanted and just listening. Turns out most of the things everyone wants are very green, and most people are not really as rabid as the newspapers they read.
There is hope, I think, but I don't see it coming from any of the existing structures. We all need to be a lot more Calum.
This was great Matt, really enjoying the direction the podcast is moving in at the moment.
Calum made loads of great points but the thing that made me think most was the idea that for many protesters, direct action is a last resort. Despite supporting the actions of peaceful protesters it's not something that immediately sprang to mind about them and will be a piece of info I take forwards.
On the other hand I felt that pushing the narrative around the potential suffering of those in the global south was less likely to resonate that Calum suggested. Sadly I think too many in the North are looking forwards to more English white wine and warmer summer days to care about this too much. Sadly I think increased flooding and climate disruption at home is more likely to focus minds.
All power to Calum. Hope he's getting some late season powder between court cases.
Great topic to dig into cheers Matt for putting it together and Calum for your dedication to driving action. Building momentum within the demand for action is definitely critical!
From POWs side we do try and discuss a lot more than just the impact on skiing, whether it's more directly related such as local economies, to the glacier water needed by literal millions, and beyond. I do think starting with sports impacts can be a useful way in to gain the interest of people that have never really considered being active on climate/environment before though, for example it sounds like POW/Jeremy Jones helped get Calum more interested at the start. I'd agree it can be much harder to get brands on board with sharing/participating in Comms or campaigns the more you try to push the envelope on climate impacts content or actions to take.
Maybe we can consider a how we can add visibility to the knock-on impacts in our social media content - whilst it's definitely there in our longer training courses like Carbon Literacy Training for example, it's harder to get the breadth of the message across in social media without losing the uniqueness that helps it attract new people but any suggestions and feedback welcomed. Hopefully more of this level of discussion as well as people participating in training (nice one for ACM taking our CLT Matt) the more it'll become easier to get behind effective asks and actions.