Love this one, Matt and Gavin! I loved your intro to the episode and I enjoyed the chat. There are so many things that need policy, manufacturing, etc change that is beyond our direct control, but this reminds us that there are meaningful things that we can do - repair, reduce, share knowledge, change our own thinking. In the end, we're the ones who have to live in the world so no matter what happens above us, it's helpful to think of things we can actually do in our day to day (mine key things are bike riding and composting). Gavin, the framing of us as citizens instead of 'activists' (ref: Matt's intro) is so useful. Thanks for the chat!
The only way we can really get those policy shifts, is if we grow the middle ground, alongside direct action.
We've experienced that here in France with the gilet jaune. After a tax rise was introduced to diesel to encourage a phase out of diesel vehicles. The push back was huge and led to weeks of protest. If the proposals had been better explained, with more information on the why, and people supported through a transition then maybe we would have collectively, accepted the change, or at least a majority would have.
Your bike riding, especially if you're using it to displace vehicle travel, and composting are very much part of this story.
My wife is the composter in our house, strangely obsessive about it. The chickens generate the manure that makes it cook, they roam free keeping the ticks at bay, we get eggs in return, the compost makes our veg patch extra productive, the children hunt for worms, and we all spend much more time outside.
We end up eating organic veg, chatting to the neighbours, (veg patches are your way in to a French mountain village) and although that process starts with composting, something people would regard as a small act in the grand scheme of things, it matters.
The ripples from that composting reach much further in to our family, our relationship with the natural world, and even the village.
I really dodge talking to my close friends about my work. I don't want to be the boring one in the corner, what my wife would call the 'fun sponge'. My friends are onboard though, the conversation isn't necessary, they see what is happening and as it is practical they get involved. They call it 'doing a One Tree', which generally means making do with what you have, repairing and cutting waste. They're moving in to the middle ground and when the legislation comes they'll be more accepting.
Really enjoyed this chat. I'd never really considered the environmental impact of clothing. I've never been an insider in the industry or sponsored or won anything, so I've always had to buy kit at retail prices. Which in turn means not buying kit because we were skint. We did buy kit from other folks clear outs or pick up damaged stuff. Repairing zips, patching holes, filling core shots and ptexing. I hadn't realised that we were actually ahead of the recycling game and leading the charge.
Gavin’s approach is admirable. As you concluded it will have to be replicated across many aspects of human existence for the rest of us and our societies to get the message that our ways have to change.
Unfortunately snow sports seem to be at the pinnacle of carbon emitting leisure industries. I reluctantly made a conscious decision in the mid 80’s that I would not pursue them. They were inaccessible for me , being the principal reason ,but instinctually I felt they require nature to bend towards a Disneyesque ideal that would cause permanent disfigurement. Discuss.
The work we need to do in the ski resorts, and everywhere really, is around building something new.
What we can't forget is that behind all these industries are good people. It's why I didn't fully express my feeling about the resorts. I have friends with families that have no options to do something different, and they're great mates that I care about.
I have no clear idea about what we can transition to here, maybe it'll involve nature restoration and management, alongside summer vacations.
Last year my local ski resort spent 56 million on a week of ski racing. That 56 million should have been invested in my communities longterm future, it could have been used to build a plan. Instead it was used to build reservoirs for fake snow, install snow cannons, and create pistes.
Great discussion, lots of food for thought! Building and showing more circular, community based ways of doing thing is definitely critical, given its so hard to get people on board with things they can't see working. I hope we see lots more replication of your approach, and it's great watching it becoming a movement!
Thanks Dom, means a lot coming from you. I've really value your work and opinion. We need to meet up again next time I'm back in the UK, unless you're coming this way?
Can't argue with any of that Ben. As Matt says you were miles ahead in your thinking.
For this approach to have the necessary impact we have to spread and quickly. It's not only us working in this way though. The Citizens Story is emerging everywhere. Check out Jon Alexander' work for countless examples.
I also have hope because the generation that is now leaving school are fundamentally different. They've grown up in this crisis.
Here's an example from Ellie. She works with me on Re-Action and is 18.
I loved this one. In my opinion a lot of the communications around individual change in the outdoor industry is a bit inauthentic and often misses the point/misunderstands the audience - i.e athletes telling us we all need to buy electric cars in order to save the winter. I think the way you talked about the changes we can make (and the kind of benefits we can gain from that in terms of our own lives and the communities around us) was very refreshing and far more effective at bringing people along. Agree that it is about community! Think this is the key - and its about using action on climate as a way for us to build strong and healthy communities that are able to also deal with the challenges in the years ahead as the climate continues to break down. To be honest it has made me reflect on the way I am talking and communicating about these things myself. Thanks!
Thanks Calum. I really like the way you write about climate change, so it feels extra special to think this conversation has encouraged you to reflect on your communication.
Your work has had the same effect on me.
I've not had the pleasure of meeting you but, I have a sneaky suspicion that we might think in a similar way.
Athletes are in a tricky position, like most of us when we speak on this subject. We're often speaking from a place of privilege and focus on solutions that apply to us.
Personally I find it hard to feel any meaningful connection with a professional athlete's message, when the message is limited to "buy better" solutions, such as electric cars, and clothing made from recycled material.
Professional athletes rely on sponsorship to compete. In return their function is to drive sales by wearing and using this season's equipment in films and competitions. If you take this impact into account, which I believe we should, a professional athlete's footprint on the planet is huge. Therefore, I find it very hard to listen if they're pushing a message of conscious consumerism. Matt said it best in our conversation, we're not business-ing our way out of this.
You and I know that adopting electric cars isn't a solution we can all afford, or even really a solution. When it comes to transport, we need free public transport, (something I'm lucky to have), support for cycling through infrastructure, improved rail services, legislation that impacts people that take multiple flights each year, state subsidised bike servicing (like we've had in France), bike to work schemes, and local community services within walking distance.
This is what we should be talking about, and campaigning for, stuff that actually matters to people.
Buying an electric car is a continuation of the consumer story. It's about the self. It's not about being a citizen and collective action.
It speaks to a minority and is a solution that has little impact above making oneself feel better. We cannot replace all the world's cars with electric cars and expect everything to change. It just won't.
Sure, get an electric car if you can afford it. Or better still, if you can, get rid of your car.
And if you have a platform, use it to support systemic change.
When it comes to talking about 'saving winter' then think hard about championing the solutions that will affect the majority of people, the stuff that will actually change many people's lives. Plus get involved directly with your local community.
Anyway, that's enough of that. I'd love to have a more in depth conversation, and find out more about your work if you have the time.
For me when I think about what Looking Sideways means, a podcast like this one perfectly sums it up. If we look sideways in our passions we may see a better more fulfilled outcome. Like Gav said just chuck on some skis it’ll still be a good day in the mountains. I took a lot of of this one and it’s made me think about our families impact.
Cheers gents, I’ll be looking sideways more often. Wish some of the local surfers would also do the same, both metaphorically and physically #localism #newboardday
So much good stuff in this conversation, and great to hear more about what Gavin is doing and that the 'movement' is expanding. There's some of that going on here in Chamonix, with clothes swaps, second hand gear sales and a place at the local tip where you can take stuff you no longer use and anyone can go and pick it up. Plus a few places to leave second hand books up and down the valley. Though moving from that to an economic model is still fairly new here.
If you do live near glaciers, especially in a valley like this one, the impact of the changing climate is unmissable, and the changes to our lives are going to be huge (and I don't mean just in mountain communities). The immediate effect is mountains literally crumbling as ground becomes unstable with heating. Unfortunately the local administrations solutions in a lot of mountain towns are still focussed around building more stuff.
Completely agree that growing the middle ground and creating a shift from cradle to grave economies to circular systems - and not, for example, everyone buying different stuff - will be the only way to achieve real change.
Love this one, Matt and Gavin! I loved your intro to the episode and I enjoyed the chat. There are so many things that need policy, manufacturing, etc change that is beyond our direct control, but this reminds us that there are meaningful things that we can do - repair, reduce, share knowledge, change our own thinking. In the end, we're the ones who have to live in the world so no matter what happens above us, it's helpful to think of things we can actually do in our day to day (mine key things are bike riding and composting). Gavin, the framing of us as citizens instead of 'activists' (ref: Matt's intro) is so useful. Thanks for the chat!
Thanks for the support Rebecca, it means a lot.
The only way we can really get those policy shifts, is if we grow the middle ground, alongside direct action.
We've experienced that here in France with the gilet jaune. After a tax rise was introduced to diesel to encourage a phase out of diesel vehicles. The push back was huge and led to weeks of protest. If the proposals had been better explained, with more information on the why, and people supported through a transition then maybe we would have collectively, accepted the change, or at least a majority would have.
Your bike riding, especially if you're using it to displace vehicle travel, and composting are very much part of this story.
My wife is the composter in our house, strangely obsessive about it. The chickens generate the manure that makes it cook, they roam free keeping the ticks at bay, we get eggs in return, the compost makes our veg patch extra productive, the children hunt for worms, and we all spend much more time outside.
We end up eating organic veg, chatting to the neighbours, (veg patches are your way in to a French mountain village) and although that process starts with composting, something people would regard as a small act in the grand scheme of things, it matters.
The ripples from that composting reach much further in to our family, our relationship with the natural world, and even the village.
I really dodge talking to my close friends about my work. I don't want to be the boring one in the corner, what my wife would call the 'fun sponge'. My friends are onboard though, the conversation isn't necessary, they see what is happening and as it is practical they get involved. They call it 'doing a One Tree', which generally means making do with what you have, repairing and cutting waste. They're moving in to the middle ground and when the legislation comes they'll be more accepting.
Really enjoyed this chat. I'd never really considered the environmental impact of clothing. I've never been an insider in the industry or sponsored or won anything, so I've always had to buy kit at retail prices. Which in turn means not buying kit because we were skint. We did buy kit from other folks clear outs or pick up damaged stuff. Repairing zips, patching holes, filling core shots and ptexing. I hadn't realised that we were actually ahead of the recycling game and leading the charge.
Gavin’s approach is admirable. As you concluded it will have to be replicated across many aspects of human existence for the rest of us and our societies to get the message that our ways have to change.
Unfortunately snow sports seem to be at the pinnacle of carbon emitting leisure industries. I reluctantly made a conscious decision in the mid 80’s that I would not pursue them. They were inaccessible for me , being the principal reason ,but instinctually I felt they require nature to bend towards a Disneyesque ideal that would cause permanent disfigurement. Discuss.
I think you were miles ahead of me with that realisation.
The work we need to do in the ski resorts, and everywhere really, is around building something new.
What we can't forget is that behind all these industries are good people. It's why I didn't fully express my feeling about the resorts. I have friends with families that have no options to do something different, and they're great mates that I care about.
I have no clear idea about what we can transition to here, maybe it'll involve nature restoration and management, alongside summer vacations.
Last year my local ski resort spent 56 million on a week of ski racing. That 56 million should have been invested in my communities longterm future, it could have been used to build a plan. Instead it was used to build reservoirs for fake snow, install snow cannons, and create pistes.
Great discussion, lots of food for thought! Building and showing more circular, community based ways of doing thing is definitely critical, given its so hard to get people on board with things they can't see working. I hope we see lots more replication of your approach, and it's great watching it becoming a movement!
Thanks Dom, means a lot coming from you. I've really value your work and opinion. We need to meet up again next time I'm back in the UK, unless you're coming this way?
Can't argue with any of that Ben. As Matt says you were miles ahead in your thinking.
For this approach to have the necessary impact we have to spread and quickly. It's not only us working in this way though. The Citizens Story is emerging everywhere. Check out Jon Alexander' work for countless examples.
I also have hope because the generation that is now leaving school are fundamentally different. They've grown up in this crisis.
Here's an example from Ellie. She works with me on Re-Action and is 18.
https://www.elliesworld.co.uk/blog/swtspeech
Wow , imagine what a 1000 Ellie’s will achieve. Thanks to both of you.
I loved this one. In my opinion a lot of the communications around individual change in the outdoor industry is a bit inauthentic and often misses the point/misunderstands the audience - i.e athletes telling us we all need to buy electric cars in order to save the winter. I think the way you talked about the changes we can make (and the kind of benefits we can gain from that in terms of our own lives and the communities around us) was very refreshing and far more effective at bringing people along. Agree that it is about community! Think this is the key - and its about using action on climate as a way for us to build strong and healthy communities that are able to also deal with the challenges in the years ahead as the climate continues to break down. To be honest it has made me reflect on the way I am talking and communicating about these things myself. Thanks!
Thanks Calum. I really like the way you write about climate change, so it feels extra special to think this conversation has encouraged you to reflect on your communication.
Your work has had the same effect on me.
I've not had the pleasure of meeting you but, I have a sneaky suspicion that we might think in a similar way.
Athletes are in a tricky position, like most of us when we speak on this subject. We're often speaking from a place of privilege and focus on solutions that apply to us.
Personally I find it hard to feel any meaningful connection with a professional athlete's message, when the message is limited to "buy better" solutions, such as electric cars, and clothing made from recycled material.
Professional athletes rely on sponsorship to compete. In return their function is to drive sales by wearing and using this season's equipment in films and competitions. If you take this impact into account, which I believe we should, a professional athlete's footprint on the planet is huge. Therefore, I find it very hard to listen if they're pushing a message of conscious consumerism. Matt said it best in our conversation, we're not business-ing our way out of this.
You and I know that adopting electric cars isn't a solution we can all afford, or even really a solution. When it comes to transport, we need free public transport, (something I'm lucky to have), support for cycling through infrastructure, improved rail services, legislation that impacts people that take multiple flights each year, state subsidised bike servicing (like we've had in France), bike to work schemes, and local community services within walking distance.
This is what we should be talking about, and campaigning for, stuff that actually matters to people.
Buying an electric car is a continuation of the consumer story. It's about the self. It's not about being a citizen and collective action.
It speaks to a minority and is a solution that has little impact above making oneself feel better. We cannot replace all the world's cars with electric cars and expect everything to change. It just won't.
Sure, get an electric car if you can afford it. Or better still, if you can, get rid of your car.
And if you have a platform, use it to support systemic change.
When it comes to talking about 'saving winter' then think hard about championing the solutions that will affect the majority of people, the stuff that will actually change many people's lives. Plus get involved directly with your local community.
Anyway, that's enough of that. I'd love to have a more in depth conversation, and find out more about your work if you have the time.
For me when I think about what Looking Sideways means, a podcast like this one perfectly sums it up. If we look sideways in our passions we may see a better more fulfilled outcome. Like Gav said just chuck on some skis it’ll still be a good day in the mountains. I took a lot of of this one and it’s made me think about our families impact.
Cheers gents, I’ll be looking sideways more often. Wish some of the local surfers would also do the same, both metaphorically and physically #localism #newboardday
Thanks so much Rich!
Great conversation- lots of food for thought about what we can do in our lives now
Thanks Craig. Glad you enjoyed it.
So much good stuff in this conversation, and great to hear more about what Gavin is doing and that the 'movement' is expanding. There's some of that going on here in Chamonix, with clothes swaps, second hand gear sales and a place at the local tip where you can take stuff you no longer use and anyone can go and pick it up. Plus a few places to leave second hand books up and down the valley. Though moving from that to an economic model is still fairly new here.
If you do live near glaciers, especially in a valley like this one, the impact of the changing climate is unmissable, and the changes to our lives are going to be huge (and I don't mean just in mountain communities). The immediate effect is mountains literally crumbling as ground becomes unstable with heating. Unfortunately the local administrations solutions in a lot of mountain towns are still focussed around building more stuff.
Completely agree that growing the middle ground and creating a shift from cradle to grave economies to circular systems - and not, for example, everyone buying different stuff - will be the only way to achieve real change.